Get What You Want In Your Relationship: Don’t Fall Prey To Hijackals! with Rhoberta Shaler, PhD
“Learn what to practice, practice it and then prepare to make the decision and then prepare to act on the decision.” -Rhoberta Shaler, PhD
Are you feeling crazy and/or powerless, in your relationship? Do you feel you can never win? In this episode, Shirley sits with Relationship Doctor, Rhoberta Shaler. Dr Shaler describes a personality she had termed “hijackal”. She discusses what its like being in a relationship with one, and how to stay in or get out of the relationship. She also shares her ABB Formula to avoid being misled by the cunning show of hijackals. and the effective strategy to win them over. Don’t miss this one, what you learn may carry you through some tough times!
02:02 Getting Out is How We Get What We Want
07:42 Passive Aggression
12:53 Escape The Hijackal Trap
19:24 Prepare and Practice
26:42 The ABB Formula
28:59 What Type of Help To Seek
Be A Client
01:36 “Sometimes we think that getting what we want is just moving forward and moving INTO something but a lot of getting what we want is getting OUT of something.” -Shirley Owens
02:04 “Sometimes those obstacles that we have that will always keep us from what we want are things that we have to clear from our lives.” -Rhoberta Shaler, PhD
04:02 “People hear and read [narcissism] on the internet then they think it's that other person's problem. And yet there you are in a relationship with them, so it's a shared problem.” -Rhoberta Shaler, PhD
22:28 “Learn what to practice, practice it and then prepare to make the decision and then prepare to act on the decision.” -Rhoberta Shaler, PhD
23:38 “You become a lot stronger of a person on the other side of it when you're doing your own work.” -Shirley Owens
27:50 “Believe the behavior, not the story you want to buy into.” -Roberta Shaler, PhD
Connect With Rhoberta:
The Relationship Help Doctor, Rhoberta Shaler, provides urgent and ongoing care for relationships and crises. Even the United States Marines have sought her help. Dr. Shaler focuses on helping the partners, exes, and adult children of the relentlessly difficult toxic people she calls “Hijackals”, to stop the crazy-making and save their sanity. She is the author of 16 books, including Escaping the Hijackal Trap and Stop! That's Crazy Making!. She hosts the internationally popular podcast, Save Your Sanity: Help for Toxic Relationships. Her YouTube channel, Toxic Relationship Help has reached over 360,000 views. Her mission is to provide insights, information, and inspiration for clients and audiences to transform relationships with themselves and other humans to be honest, respectful, and safe in all ways.
Watch it Live!
Shirley Owens: My guest today is Rhoberta Shaler PHD. The Relationship Help Doctor provides urgent and ongoing care for relationships and crisis. Her mission is to provide the insights, information, and inspiration for clients and audiences to transform relationships with themselves and other humans to be honest, respectful and safe in all ways, even the United States Marines have sought her help. Dr. Shaler focuses on helping the partners, exes and adult children of the relentlessly difficult toxic people she calls “Hijackals” to stop the crazy making and save their insanity. Author of 16 books, including Escaping the Hijackal Trap and Stop That's Crazy Making. She hosts the internationally popular podcasts, Save Your Sanity: Help for Toxic Relationships. Her YouTube channel Toxic Relationship Help has reached over 360,000 views.
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: Thanks so much. It's a joy to be with you, Shirley.
Shirley Owens: Thank you. Obviously, this is a Get What You Want podcast. And I feel that sometimes we think that getting what we want is just moving forward and moving into something. And a lot of getting what we want is getting out of something. And I feel like I've been in this myself and I'm grateful to be out of it. So this is such an important message that you have today, and I'm super excited to talk about getting out of something so that we can move into something that we want.
“Sometimes we think that getting what we want is just moving forward and moving INTO something but a lot of getting what we want is getting OUT of something.” -Shirley Owens
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: Well, that's a great thing to do because sometimes those obstacles that we have that will always keep us from what we want are things that we have to clear from our lives. And toxic relationships, they tend to linger, they tend to hang around, we tend to make excuses, or justifications, or rationalizations for the behavior and we really get stuck. So it's a good thing to talk about.
“Sometimes those obstacles that we have that will always keep us from what we want are things that we have to clear from our lives.” -Rhoberta Shaler, PhD
Shirley Owens: Oh, for sure. I know myself and I have a lot of friends who have experienced this kind of thing. And when you're in it, you feel, at least I felt like I was doing something wrong. I had to have possibly been doing something wrong to have this person be that way. And specifically talking about narcissism, I know that narcissism is very over diagnosed, and I know that some people actually have a clinical diagnosis, and some people just exhibit narcissistic behavior. Can you talk a little bit about that and how that type of diagnosis can really be a toxic relationship?
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: Yes. And let's be really, really clear. Most people who actually have narcissistic personality disorder will never go near anyone who would diagnose them. So the people who are over diagnosing in quotes are the people who are rushing off to the internet, putting in what's happening to them. And then the internet, not being a mental health professional, being an index, bits back the term narcissist, or sociopath, or psychopath, or borderline. And then you think, Oh, that's a diagnosis. It isn't, it's a description. And that's actually why I created the term Hijackal so people would have a term that they could use that was talking about the patterns, traits, cycles, behaviors of these people rather than a clinical diagnosis. Because you can't make one unless you're a mental health professional, and it doesn't help. And the second reason I created this is because people go in here and read that on the internet, then they think it's that other person's problem. And yet there you are, in relationship with them, so it's a shared problem.
“People hear and read [narcissism] on the internet then they think it's that other person's problem. And yet there you are in a relationship with them, so it's a shared problem.” -Rhoberta Shaler, PhD
Shirley Owens: Oh, I love that so much because in my book and what I teach a lot about is how we're being in our relationship and how that affects everything else that goes on in our relationship, how we are part of the creation of it. I was on a morning show, we were talking about narcissism for some reason, and I've written a few articles on it. And really it is that like, I do believe that it's something so different than what we think it is. And so we do throw that out at the other person. They're like, Oh, well, they're a narcissist. So it's always going to be like this, or it's always going to be that. And so talk about Hijackals, I listened to one of your podcasts years ago and I just fell in love with this whole term. And I feel that I quote you all the time, and I don't know all the way about it. So I want to become more of an expert on that because I want to help people that are in these relationships to realize that they can get out and there is a way to end it if you will. And so, yeah, just talk a little bit about that. And maybe even tell me your story, how you discovered this and how you became the expert at this.
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: Well, that'll take a few days, but let me talk about Hijackals. I mean, the reason I created the term, as I said, is we needed something to describe what was going on, not a diagnosis. And what a Hijackal is, is a person who hijacks relationships for their own purposes and then proceeds to relentlessly scavenge them for power, status and control. So if you have a parent, or a partner, and ex, a sibling who is CONSTANTLY wanting you to be at their behest, what they want is more important than anything that you might have to say, want, needs, think, then you're in a relationship with Hijackal in all probability, and you really need to understand that. So when you're with one of these difficult people, they have to win. You can't be right. You simply can't be right because they have to be the top of the pile. They have to be the smartest person in the room. They honestly think they're the master puppeteer. They're manipulating everybody. And they think they're so smart. They think nobody else notices what they're up to. So these are very important things. And that's my definition of a Hijackal. That's why I trademarked the term, that's why I write about it, talk about it, all of that to keep us from those diagnoses. And sure, all the things we talk about are characteristics of people who are narcissistic, borderline, sociopath, psychopath, histrionic, and all of those people are passive aggressive too.
Shirley Owens: So explain to me what passive aggressive is. I know I've lived with that and it's almost worse than aggressive to me being with somebody who's passive aggressive and just the energy that just consumes the entire room, but explain to our listeners a little bit more. So if they're experiencing this feeling that they may be able to understand a little bit of what is going on with that, because I know that in my past relationship where I dealt with this, he appeared to be very kind but everything was self serving. So he was very outwardly kind, but the passive aggressiveness caused so much underneath that it was just boiling all the time.
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: Well, there's two parts to what you just described, Shirley. So first of all, I'll answer your question. Passive aggressiveness is when people do behaviors that are actually not addressing what's going on. So they will say something like, sure, I'll do that for you, knowing full well they have no intention of doing it, but they don't want to have the conflict with you at the moment. So they push it off and they wait to see if you come back to them and you're angry and because they didn't do it. And then when they didn't do it, you're angry. They tell you, you were unreasonable to expect them to do it, or to ask them to do it. So it's one of those situations where you think you're making nice and you're having an agreement, or you can believe the word of that person, but they're just avoiding any kind of clarity in the moment because they're afraid of it. They don't want to deal with it so they push it off. Passive aggressive things, here's one. You're talking to someone who's passive aggressive and you may not know it, but you will have to tell that, you're talking to someone and you're having a little discussion that things haven't been going so well, and you're expounding on your feelings. And the passive aggressive person says to you, I'm so sorry you're offended by that. And at that moment you want to go, what? I mean, are you taking no responsibility for this? Are you not engaging with me? Are you not hearing me? Do you not care? I mean, all of that comes up for you and that person just thinks they handled it. I'm sorry you're offended. At that moment, I mean, you just want to smack somebody don't you? But don't do that. But that's the inclination that you have, you just missed the point entirely of what I want to talk to you about. And you dismissed me in six words, you know? And that's passive aggressive. That's that feeling you were talking about that you just got punched and you're not quite sure what happened.
And that's why I wrote Stop! That's Crazy-Making! How to Quit Playing the Passive-Aggressive Game. It's a download, it's an eBook. Really understand that. I've written lots of articles and lots of YouTube videos on passive aggression. So really understand it, listen to this stuff over and over until you really get it so that you can go all, that was passive aggressive. And then there's no point blaming a passive aggressive person. You just simply, when you start to recognize it coming at you, you say, no, the reason I'm sharing what I'm sharing with you is that your behavior affected me. And I just want you to know how we could make that different. So you come from that authentic place of speaking about yourself. When I wrote Kaizen For Couples, in there I discussed my formula for personal weather report, it's really good to learn it because you want to feel super confident in your communication and super clean in your communication. You don't want to get into the blaming, you don't want to get into playing their game, you don't want to do that. You want to be coming from your thoughts, your feelings, your needs, your wants, your preferences. Don't talk about him at all.
Shirley Owens: I love how you say that because I feel like when you come from that place of wanting to win, you never win. You just feel more crazy. And I would always visualize it as someone punching me in the face and then getting upset with me for bleeding. And I just remember thinking, Oh, I don't understand, you are the one that hurt me yet I'm getting in trouble for you for reacting, for being offended by you hurting me. And I find that a very common thing when I hear about these relationships in men and women. I find that as common as they just sort of like, I don't understand. Somehow they twist it, and they have these magical words to it, and blame it right back on you. And so I remember that feeling, and I think that I was most attracted to listening to you when I saw something about crazy-making because it really feels like that. It really feels like you're going crazy because you're, I said the sky was blue, you said, no, it's not, its yellow. So then I agree with you that it's yellow, and then you say, no, it's blue. And then I felt crazy. And I remember that constant feeling of I can never win. Then what I started to do was to back off and not even try to win anymore. And that's where I think that kind of hijacking of your soul comes in. They control the entire relationship and it is super toxic. So if someone was to come to you and say, I am stuck in this, because I know for a fact that there's so many people stuck in this, do you first kind of walk through to make sure that's really what it is? Or what's the first thing that you would do?
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: Well, first of all, I listened to them, tell me their story, tell me what's going on, tell me how they feel and I can use the checklist in my head to say, Oh, okay, I've just heard 13 Hijackal behaviors here. So then I'll ask some questions. I'll ask how they respond, what they do. And then the next big question is what is the result you want? Because it's a big question, Shirley. Sometimes the age of children, sometimes finances, sometimes many things will change the plan for making a decision about whether to stay or go. So I need to ask all of those questions, then I want to know, did you have a Hijackal parent? Because if you did, one of two things are going to happen. Either you will have a tendency to be a hijackal or you'll become hijackal bait. You will have been groomed to put up with this nonsense, and you will be uncomfortably comfortable with it because it's familiar. So if that's in your background, then we have to say, okay, let's look at where these patterns began. And then what can you do? What are your next best steps? I like what you said, I stopped jumping into the crazy-making. If it's going to be a game of one-upmanship and you're always going to be right, then I'm not going to play. Basically, that's what you said.
Shirley Owens: Yeah.
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: And then he said, Oh, there's no game here. The girls did not get a game. Now I'm angry. Now I'm angry. What'd you got? What'd you got? What'd you got? Right? And the hijackal wants you to engage so they can squash you. So when you don't engage in great strategy, like if you don't care what they think about you, you are on your way to greater help.
Shirley Owens: Yes. And also, I found that I cared less because I used to get so triggered and be angry. Anger doesn't live in me very well. So when I stopped caring, then I started searching for ways out. So for me, the answer was not that it was easy because it wasn't easy. So I also know people, I got out and got into a healthy relationship because I feel like I was kind of blindsided by that. I don't know. I'm sure that I allowed it. And I had a lot of the creation in it because I enabled him to be that way. But I have some clients and some friends who are even out of that relationship, but somehow that person is still hooking them and holding on to them. So you'll speak to that a little bit?
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: Sure. I mean, remembered to a hijackal, you are not the love of their life. You're the current supply. So they're always having supply. They've got the current supply, they've got the past supply. They've got the supply that they're grooming or the side hustles that they've got going on. So they're always grooming supplies. These are charming people. They've got people at work. They've got people they see at the coffee shop. They've got that going on. They're grooming some new ones. And then they've got, all of that going on. So they want to keep you in the supply chain. That's the deal. So you reject them, and they're angry about that. Nobody rejects me. I'm the King of the hill, or the Queen of the hill. And just in that regard, they're equal number of male and female hijackals, they just present differently. So they don't like it. They don't like it when you stand up to them. They don't like it when you don't care about them. They don't like it when you don't do what they want you to do. And they don't like it if you don't engage in the fight. So when you step back from all that, and maybe you discard them, maybe you move away from them, maybe you say no more at that moment, you then are putting their supply chain in jeopardy. So that's why they keep being the gifts that keep on giving. They keep coming back. They keep texting, and they try different things like, hi, babe, how are you? Meaning like, Hey, isn't this great? And if you go, Oh, I don't have a relationship in my life. I wonder, Oh, that's nice to hear. Then you will fall into the trap of believing their press that they showed you at the beginning of the relationship, which is the phase that we call love bombing. They're going to be who you want them to be. They're going to be a chameleon. They will fit. They will do everything. And then they want to do it in the shortest possible amount of time, because it's not real until they, you know, as I wrote in Escaping the Hijackal Trap, there's a whole chapter on the gotcha factor. They want to get you as fast as possible. That means, hook you into love, hook you into some kind of commitment, living together, having a baby together. A hijackal will say things to you like, do you know, as soon as I saw your photo on that dating site, I just knew I was going to marry you.
Shirley Owens: Yes.
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: And at that moment you got to go, really? If you're flattered, okay, game on, right?
Shirley Owens: Right. Wow. There's so much to that. And I teach how to be healthy in a relationship, you teach how to be healthy in an unhealthy relationship. So we're kind of like on the same thing, just doing different parts of it. And so I've identified, I've come to you. I've identified that I'm in a toxic relationship, and I've identified that the other person is the hijackal, but I haven't really identified what I'm doing, what is my part? So for me, I have the same thing,, like you're not getting what you want out of your relationship. Are you doing your part? What is your part in this? And so I feel like a lot of people, they don't want to hear that, they don't want to immediately hear that they're the problem. And so I will kind of meet them where they're at, because I've been there and I know what that feels like. And then take them on a kind journey out of that. But what is it that you do, and how do you approach that when you realize that the person that wants to stop the hijackal really has a huge part in it?
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: Well, they all have a huge part in it because they're enabling or condoning the behavior until the minute they decide to stop, and they're doing it mostly unconsciously. Like I said, if you were raised in a hijackal home where there was abuse, or childhood emotional neglect, or something like that, then you're looking for something, you're looking to belong, you're looking to have somebody tell you you're valuable. And they love that because then you become dependent on them for your self worth. So if you've woken up and said, Hey, I'm going to smell the herbal tea here. This is not okay with me. I don't want this anymore. Then yes, you're going to say, okay, up until this minute, I've been making it okay even though I've been complaining, or crying, or leaving, or getting angry, somehow it's been okay enough with me and I'm declaring right now, it isn't. How do I change from here on out? And I always tell people, first of all, do your own work. Unless there's physical or sexual violence, then take the time to do your own work. Because sometimes people will call me and they'll say, I can't do it another minute. I'm just going to leave with the clothes on my back and take the kids and be glad. No, please don't do that. Don't if there is some physical or sexual violence. Don't do that because you will not get your fair share and the court will not see that well.
So it's very important to what I call, prepare and practice. You need to practice new skills yourself so that you come into your own, that you feel empowered, that you have good communication and conflict management skills that you have learned and tried out on the hijackal so that you can practice, you can see what works, what doesn't work, if there's a little bit of movement, if the hijackal backs off or what it will do. But you are empowering yourself. I teach you how to empower yourself in that situation. And then that's part of the preparation for making the decision. Are you going to stay? Are you going to go? So many factors, age of children, money, family, culture, all of that spiritual beliefs. So many things to consider, no one size fits all answer. And then we start doing what we need to do to prepare to move on if that's what we're going to do. Or how to set boundaries and things within the relationship to see the best ways to set boundaries that you're heard, or the best way to hold a boundary if you haven't been heard, that's practice. And you're definitely gonna need it when you get out of the relationship, if you get out of it, but even more so you're going to need it if you stay. I don't know what the right answer is for anyone, but you are going to need how to see it because you're in it and you can't see it when you're in it. So that's how I help people move forward. They need to learn what to practice, practice it, and then prepare to make the decision, and then prepare to act on the decision.
“Learn what to practice, practice it and then prepare to make the decision and then prepare to act on the decision.” -Rhoberta Shaler, PhD
Shirley Owens: I love that. I feel like oftentimes we think that we have to make a decision right now, and it's black and white. We have to be in or out, or stay or go. And the more clients that I work with, the more people, the more I learn about life, the more I realize there's like 50 decisions in between the stairs. And so I love that you say that because I do think that you become a lot stronger of a person on the other side of it when you're doing your own work.
“You become a lot stronger of a person on the other side of it when you're doing your own work.” -Shirley Owens
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: Who wants that person, Shirley, who got out with the clothes on their back and their children cowering in a studio apartment with five children saying, now what? I mean, if you don't have skills, if you don't have insights, if you haven't strengthened yourself, if you don't feel empowered, or confident, or know that you can communicate clearly, and you're not afraid of what to do and say, you know how to handle the court, you know how to choose an attorney, you know what to do with the police reports, you have to know all of that. And I take my clients through all of that so they're totally empowered. You just don't want to be that person who says, Oh, I'm out. And you look around and say, I have nothing, I am so worn out, torn down, put down, disempowered, I don't even know if I can make breakfast. You don't want to be that.
Shirley Owens: No, because I think that that thing in itself makes you the prey for the next hijackal.
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: That's exactly right. Because they're predators, and they're looking for people who have been groomed. And groomed means that they can swoop in and be your hero. So in that love bombing phase, they love to do that. And if you're in a relationship with them for very long, here's how they do it. They create a terrible problem that really makes you feel awful. And when they get you feeling really awful, then they swoop in and they become the comfort. Oh, I'm so sorry. Honey, come here, let me look after you. And that's what creates trauma bonding, they create then disaster, then they swoop in and be the answer, the hero. And then you think, Oh, yes, that person is the person I thought they were. Because every single person who's with a hijackal, in my opinion, is hooked on hope that the person they met is the real person and that person's coming back. If they can only find the formula to be who they need them to be so that the hijackal will relax, and feel loved, and secure. And you are going to make yourself into a pretzel and a doormat doing that. And they are not going to ever feel loved and secure. One of the hallmarks of a hijackal is the inability to ever reach that point of satisfaction, where they feel loved, secure, stable, relaxed, and don't have to keep pressing their edge.
Shirley Owens: That makes so much sense. So much clarity from that. So if you were to give our listeners today, one word of advice, I know that there are people listening, thinking either I'm that or I'm with that. And what would be your one thing that you would give them that would be an advice that they could start today to move forward or backwards?
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: The one piece of advice that is absolutely essential is my ABB formula. And it's really something that most people with hijackals don't want to do because they're so used to making excuses, and rationalizations, justifications for the hijackal. Oh, they're tired, or they're stressed, or they're out of work. Oh, you know, they drink too much, but it is because, I mean, all of that, you need to follow ABB, ready?
Shirley Owens: I'm ready.
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: ALWAYS BELIEVE BEHAVIOR.
Shirley Owens: Wow.
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: I had a woman come into my office one day, I don't have an office anymore because my clients are all over the world. But she came in, she had a big red Mark on her face and I said: "what happened?" She said: "he hit me, but I know he loves me." I said: "how do you know He loves you?" "Three weeks ago, He brought me flowers." "So three weeks ago, he hit you, And then he felt bad because you weren't speaking to him and he brought you flowers." "Yeah. And he told me, he loved me." I said: "this is not a love tap. ALWAYS BELIEVE BEHAVIOR. A man who loves you, doesn't hit you. Believe the behavior, not the story you want to buy into the way you wish it were, the way you hope you can create. always believe the behavior in front of you. Always believe your own behavior too, because you may be giving yourself mixed messages, but Always Believe Behavior."
“Believe the behavior, not the story you want to buy into.” -Roberta Shaler, PhD
Shirley Owens: Wow. You would think that it would just be logical that we would think that, but that is such remarkable advice. I think about that because the one thing that I believe that people that are in that place, a hijackal space, is they're so good with their words. They can win you back in a few words and make you forgive and forget, but covers up that like a bandaid, all the time. I love that advice, that is so important. I'm going to remember that. What possibly this question could have to relate to you because I ask it to all of my guests. But is there anything looking back in your life that you feel that you would do over or that you regret?
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: Not anything I could have done because I was raised by two hijackal parents and I'm an only child. So maybe a different family would have been nice, I don't think I can do anything about that. But what it gave me, because I was clear that they were not operating from anything healthy when I was very young. So really, no. I mean, the things that I wish and what I helped my clients too, is to see it way earlier. I knew something was off, but what is it? And then of course, because I was raised in a hijackal family, I married a hijackal, I went off to counseling. And this is what happened, Shirley, when you go to counseling, you as the non-hijackal go to counseling because you want to have the situation seen, you want someone else to see what's going on. The hijackal goes to counseling in order to manipulate, deceive, seduce, and explore the therapist into coming over to their side, which is why you have to work with somebody who is experienced in the field of hijackals and toxic people, because otherwise, they will use the same thing they use with most people is. Let's manage your communication. Let's see how you treat each other. And pretty soon, he will have, or she will, whoever the hijackal is, move the therapist to the place of saying, well, if only you would communicate, or if you only you would recognize his or her needs and you walk out of there going, what happened? I just got hit again.
Shirley Owens: Yes. I have seen that so many times. I've heard it, I've seen it, I've been in it. Yeah, I get that.
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: So if I could change anything, I would have woken up to it a little earlier, which is why I do it. I have clients now, I'm so excited. And because I have some clients who are in their 20's, and they're waking up, and certainly the couple will come and we'll work things through and find out what's real, which is wonderful. But mostly, people are very busy getting an education, choosing a career, deciding the right thing to do is get in a relationship, buy a house, have a family. And by the time you actually wake up and smell the herbal tea and go, Hey, this is not working very well. I feel anxious every single day, I'm walking on eggshells, which is a terrible way to get your exercise, your hypervigilant, all of that. That's the moment when you need help, and you need very experienced, specialized help. It's not general health, and that's important to know. So if I could change anything, I guess I would have recognized it earlier and started helping myself earlier, but there was no help for me so I developed all the things that I help people with, and have been doing it for a long time now.
Shirley Owens: That's amazing. So how do we get in touch with you?
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: forrelationshiphelp.com, right there on the screen, and there's so much there. You'll find my podcast, Save Your Sanity. Or you can go to saveyoursanitypodcast.com. And my YouTube channel has the same name as my website, so the YouTube channel is For Relationship Help. I also have a membership program for people who want to be safely off social media. So when you go to forrelationshiphelp.com, click on circles, and you'll see that I have two levels of membership program there. And that software, what I'm really excited about, Shirley, is completely on my website. Nobody can get to it who isn't a member. Nobody can see a thing who isn't a member. And as part of that membership, Growth Circle Level, people get to come on Saturdays from 10 to 11 to my Saturday support sessions as part of their membership. Now, other people can do that for $25. They can come over and just come one time. And it's limited to 24 people at Saturday, so you have to preregister by 4:00 o'clock on Friday. So there's a whole lot of things available to you. And if you want to work with me directly, of course, go to forrelationshiphelp.com, or I have an introductory offer for full one hour for $97, and you find that at beaclient.com.
Shirley Owens: That's awesome. I will put all of those links on my website and our show notes. And I'm so grateful for you being here today, you offer so much help and inspiration, and I love the community of your Saturdays. I think that would be really helpful to people that may not have anyone else to talk to you about it. So thank you so much. You're amazing. And I'm so grateful that you are my guest today.
Rhoberta Shaler PhD: Thank you so much. I'm delighted with the work you do, and I wish you well with that.
Shirley Owens: Thank you.