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  • Writer's pictureShirley Owens

The Secret to Mastering Happiness with Hale Dwoskin

“When you recognize the true source of who you are, that brings a whole other level of freedom from suffering and unshakable happiness.” -Hale Dwoskin

What is happiness and how can you achieve it? Most people feel that happiness is somewhat elusive. Yet, they keep on searching for it, although sometimes in the wrong place and in the wrong way. In this episode, Shirley and Hale Dwoskin, author of New York’s best-seller, The Sedona Method reveal the secret to unshakable happiness. Hale shares one simple technique from The Sedona Method to dissolve all the unwanted feelings that cause suffering and pain. Also, discover how awareness and letting go of resistance can help you move from being a victim of life to being a master of it. Live the happiness, be the happiness! Tune in!


02:00 The Secret

05:23 What Is Happiness?

13:11 The Sedona Method

22:25 Don’t Believe In Everything

29:24 Let Go of the Resistance

37:15 Be a Master of Your Life




Happiness is free and it’s closer than you think! Join @SfbaldwinOwens and Hale Dwoskin, author of the @sedonamethod as they reveal the greatest secret to happiness!


  • 03:09 “Before what you want is opposed to against what you don't want.” -Hale Dwoskin

  • 05:39 “Happiness is simply you, being your true self.” -Hale Dwoskin

  • 08:30 “The more you recognize that you are the awareness as opposed to the contents of awareness, happiness becomes boundless because that awareness is you. It's the source of happiness.” -Hale Dwoskin

  • 10:58 “Live the happiness and be the happiness.” -Hale Dwoskin

  • 17:18 “Awareness is primary, everything else that we experience is secondary.” -Hale Dwoskin

  • 27:19 “Pain is a label. The suffering comes from the label, not from the sensation itself.” -Hale Dwoskin

  • 31:41 “The more you let go of resistance, the more you discover the underlying flow, ease, and acceptance, which is what's natural.” -Hale Dwoskin

  • 32:38 “Resistance is a feeling of moving forward with the brakes on. When you let go, you feel more and more in charge and less and less a victim of whatever's happening.” -Hale Dwoskin

  • 38:41 “When you recognize the true source of who you are, that brings a whole other level of freedom from suffering and unshakable happiness.” -Hale Dwoskin

Connect With Hale:

Hale Dwoskin is the New York Times best-selling author of "The Sedona Method," and is featured in the movie, "Letting Go." He is also one of the featured teachers of the book and movie phenomenon, "The Secret," and a featured teacher in "The Greatest Secret." He is the co-founder of Sedona Training Associates, an organization that teaches courses based on the emotional releasing techniques inspired by his mentor, Lester Levenson. He has dedicated his life to helping people eliminate their suffering and discover the truth of who they truly are. He is also a founding member of The Transformational Leadership Council. For over four decades, he has regularly been teaching "The Sedona Method" to individuals and corporations throughout the world and has been leading facilitator trainings and advanced retreats since the early 1990s. He is the co-author with Lester Levenson of "Happiness Is Free: And It's Easier Than You Think, Books 1 through 5, The Greatest Secret Edition."


Shirley Owens: My guest today is Hale Dwoskin. Hale is the author of The New York Times Bestseller, The Sedona Method, and the co-author of Happiness Is Free: And It's Easier Than You Think! with Lester Levenson. He is one of the feature teachers in the book and movie phenomenon, The Secret, as well as a feature teacher in The Greatest Secret. He is also featured in the movie Letting Go. Hale is the Director of Training, Chief Teacher and Spokesperson of Sedona Training Associates, an organization created to promote the emotional releasing techniques inspired by his friend, mentor and teacher, Lester Levenson. He is also a founding member of the Transformational Leadership Council. That's a lot, Hale, thank you so much for being here.

Hale Dwoskin: It's my pleasure.

Shirley Owens: I love when I have guests that have so many things that I can talk about. It's really a pleasure having you here.

Hale Dwoskin: Oh, it's good pleasure being here with you.

Shirley Owens: I have to say, years ago, when The Secret came out, it was very impactful in my life. And it's always been there. I teach a lot of things in my own book and my own courses about just being positive, and searching for evidence, and how we can create anything we want in our lives. So tell me a little bit about how you became a part of The Secret. And then, as well as a lot of these other things that you are involved in right now.

“Before what you want is opposed to against what you don't want.” -Hale Dwoskin

Hale Dwoskin: Oh, sure. Well, I became part of The Secret because Rhonda Byrne came as a guest to one of the meetings of an organization, I was one of the founders of something called the Transformational Leadership Council. And about 90% of the movie was filmed during one of our three, four day sessions. And she just took one of us at a time in a room, put us in front of a green screen and interviewed us. My interview was a little different. A lot of my friends were in The Secret. The word of attraction is part of their core teachings, and it's only a small part of what we do. Rhonda was actually more interested in the main thing that we do, which is focusing on the letting go, and discovering the truth of who or what you are, then she was discussing The Secret. At the very end she said: "Oh, before we stop, I need to ask you a question so you can say something, so you'll be included in the film." So the quote that I gave, which is before what you want as opposed to what you don't want became a whole segment of the film because of that. She then went back and looked for other people saying similar things from the interviews.

So I ended up being a big part of her latest book, The Greatest Secret because after The Secret came out, she spent the next 14 years investigating letting go and discovering truth, discovering that inner core that we truly are as opposed to all the things you walk out on the surface. And in discovering that, she started feeling happier, and happier, and happier. She was already a happy person and a successful person, but this took it to a totally new level. And her level of suffering, which is already very low, because again of how positive she was, got to a totally new level of absence of suffering. So the Sedona Method, myself and my mentor, Lester Levenson ended up being a big part of her latest book, The Greatest Secret. So that is the evolution of how I got involved in the sacred.

Shirley Owens: That's awesome. I love the idea of happiness. My husband and I were just having this conversation last night about perspective. How everything in our life is perspective? That's a huge part of what I teach. If you change your perspective, you change your reality, and what is happiness? Everyone says, you hear people say, I'm happy or I feel like I'm a genuinely happy person, like my underlying mode of being is happy. I might have some bad days, or I may have something that knocks me down, but I would say that like, I really love the idea of happy. I think that that's kind of my foundation, but that's my perspective.

Hale Dwoskin: Hmm.

Shirley Owens: When you talk about these different levels of happiness, that sounds pretty amazing. So explain to me a little bit like, would you define happy or happiness.

“Happiness is simply you, being your true self.” -Hale Dwoskin

Hale Dwoskin: Actually, I have an unusual definition. Unusual to some people, but usual, the things that I talk about are very similar to what the other teachers in The Greatest Secret talk about. And that is happiness is simply you being your true self, not your tendencies, not what you do, not what you have, not what you think about. But beyond all that, there is this presence of awareness or beingness that is shining from the core of your being. And it's what actually gives life to all experience, but it's also the source of happiness. And how that works is when we want something in life, wanting it actually creates a little one happiness to the degree that we want it, we feel more unhappy. So we get confused because one of the ways most of us experience happiness is when we finally get something we've been wanting. But that's a fleeting form of happiness. And the reading and reason it's fleeting is because when you get something that you've wanted, all the thoughts and feelings about, oh, I must have this, I must have this, temporarily subside, and the mind is quieter. It's more out of the way. And that happiness, that is your basic nature can shine through more than it usually does. And then we get confused, we think it's in the person, the place, the thing, the new toy. But all of us have experienced that that temporary happiness that comes from just the quieting of the mind that happens naturally when you achieve something or get something is fleeting.

“The more you recognize that you are the awareness as opposed to the contents of awareness, happiness becomes boundless because that awareness is you. It's the source of happiness.” -Hale Dwoskin

So after the new car smell wears off, the happiness we get from the new car starts to disappear. And then we start to worry about the car getting scratched. Or we start to look around and go, well, this car is great, but what can I get as my next car. And unfortunately, we do that in relationships, we do that in every part of our life where we're constantly seeking happiness in all the wrong places. Yeah, you can discover from your own direct experience that happiness is what's natural as you've been starting to see. Happiness is what's natural to each and every one of us just by letting go of the thoughts, feelings and beliefs that conflict with it. And by recognizing directly that you are not the body, mind and all its problems, you are that, which is aware of it. And the more you recognize that you are the awareness as opposed to the contents of awareness, happiness becomes boundless because that awareness is you, and it's the source of happiness. It's the source of joy, it's the source of love, it's the source of beauty and it is already who you are.

Shirley Owens: That's beautiful. I feel like you're speaking my language. Obviously, my podcast is called Get What You Want.

Hale Dwoskin: Yes.

Shirley Owens: And my book is Get What You Want From Your Man. And I think that people look at that and they're just like, Oh, my gosh, Who is this woman saying these words, get what you want. And I think that kind of my goal of writing that first book was to have people that felt that they needed something more, that they needed to get what they wanted from their person to find happiness in that relationship. And what it's really about, and I'm kind of telling my secret which may make people not to buy the book. But what really about is who we're being in any situation is how we create what we want in our life. So really, do you really want jewelry, a bigger ring, a new house? Do you really want all of these things? Or is it who your being that creates what you really want, which is connection, love and fulfillment in yourself and others. So I love the word AWARE. I use that a lot. BEING is also one of my favorite things. I'm really loving what you're speaking into right now because this is really what I want my guests to experience, to figure out what it is that they truly want, not what they think they want.

“Live the happiness and be the happiness.” -Hale Dwoskin

Hale Dwoskin: Well, actually, there's a great question that people can use for that. And what you can do is ask yourself, what is my heart's deepest desire? And then what you can do from that is, whatever comes to mind, this might seem radical, but whatever comes to mind, you let that go as best you can and keep going deeper. The deeper you get, the more authentic what you discover until you get to a point that you start to live the happiness and be the happiness. And also the goals that are left are your true authentic goals. Many of us are living our parents goals, society's goals, our spouse's goals, our friends goals, our children's goals, but we're not really pursuing which is most authentic to us. So if you explore that question, what is my heart's deepest desire? And you ask questions, follow up questions, whatever the mind says in response to that, you can say, and if it's even deeper than that or beyond that, what is my heart's deepest desire? And you keep taking that deeper, and you'll find that things get less and less material and more and more real. You'll find that there are certain material things that really are authentic to you. But it's a much better place to come from, which is authentic to you.

Shirley Owens: Yeah, I agree. Do you think that the world, there's so many distractions, I tried to talk to my clients about that same thing like, who are you? Not who you're being for someone else, not who you've been not, who actually are you? I feel like sometimes, there's not enough silence or not enough disconnection with all of our distractions of the world for people to truly understand what is inside. If you were to tell somebody, it's great to say, what is your deepest desire? How would you have them apply that? Because I feel like a lot of times, it's hard for people to just sit in silence and really actually go through the fillings, the different layers and levels to find that very deep desire of what they want. And where would you have someone start with that? I know, I usually ask this at the end of the show, but I feel like it applies right now.

“Awareness is primary, everything else that we experience is secondary.” -Hale Dwoskin

Hale Dwoskin: Well, that's a good question. We can spend a lot of time talking about that, because The Sedona Method is a technique that shows you how to dissolve all those things that we run away from, how to dissolve all those things that appear to be causing us pain and suffering and a sense of distance, and a sense of loneliness, and a sense of incompleteness. All of that is unreal. It's not who you are. And because it's not who you are, you can let it go. The basic premise of The Sedona Method is that feelings, thoughts and beliefs are just that, they're not facts and you can let them go. And that what you are at your core is already whole, complete and enough as it is. Completely unlimited, joyous and still. And you can discover that from your own living experience. We teach techniques that show you how to do that because you brought that up, let's dive into at least one of the techniques that we teach. Because whenever I do a podcast like this or interview on radio or TV, depending on the time, I try to give at least one tool that people can use immediately even if they never look more into The Sedona Method, because I've used this work for four and a half decades. And hundreds of thousands of people are doing it all over the world so I don't want anything, I don't need anything. Both because I've already achieved success for myself, but also because I live from that state of completeness and happiness. So it doesn't matter how much I give away in these interviews, I want people to have what I have.

So I think the good place to start, there's a technique that's also very similar to what Rhonda put in her book. Because many of the teachers, including myself in The Greatest Secret, run this latest book. If you can discover that you're not the person, you are the awareness that's aware of the person and their wife, which may sound weird, but it's very, very powerful to see that from your own living experience. And there's a set of simple questions. This is The Sedona Method version, Rhonda changes one or two words, I think she changed it so it would be an exact copy. But again, I think it's her version of it, because every teacher in The Secret asked similar questions. So this The Greatest Secret. So here's the question, I'll tell you what it is, and then what I'll do is I'll take all of us through an exploration of this as a meditation, or an exploration, or an experiment so people can really get a sense of what I'm talking about. So the question is very simple. Are you that? Referring to a pain in your body of thought, or feeling, a belief, an idea, a story you have about yourself? Or are you that? Which is aware. And when you ask that question from your heart as opposed to your head, something wonderful happens. The awareness that you are, which is always in the background because you can't experience anything without awareness. Awareness is primary. Everything else that we experience is secondary. But when you start asking questions like this, the awareness that you are becomes more and more primary, and that transforms how you experience everything. It makes everything more fun, easier, more joyous, more peaceful, more silent even in the myths of activity. So let's do an exploration using that question.

Shirley Owens: Okay.

Hale Dwoskin: I'm not going to be asking you this question, I'm asking all your listeners and viewers at the same time so I want to put you on the spot.

Shirley Owens: It's perfect.

Hale Dwoskin: So allow yourself to think of something in your life that you're wanting to change or improve. It could be a way you think, a way you feel, a way you experience life, or anything about your life. In general, the story of your life. Now, as you focus on it, just notice whatever that brings up inside of you. It may bring up thoughts, feelings, ideas, pictures, memories, all of which we tend to identify with. Now, check as you focus on that, as you allow that, as you welcome that. Check, are you actually that? Or are you that? Which is aware. Now, really look into your direct experience in this moment. I think you'll notice that you are the awareness. And even if you notice that only a little bit, whatever else you were just focusing on that seemed a little contracted, starts to relax and open. So let's do that again. Wherever there is still any sense of remaining contraction within your body, mind? Check. Are you that? Or are you that? Which is aware. Each time you do that, it's more obvious, it's more relaxed, it's more open. So let's do that just one more time because I want to make sure everyone listening gets a real sense of this. You can do this on your own anytime, and you'll be amazed at how powerful this is. The more you recognize that you are that pure awareness, the more have transformed, you and your wife become. So again, focus on any remaining contraction in your experience. And could you just welcome it, or allow it? And then check. Are you actually that? Or are you that? Which is aware.

Shirley Owens: I really like that.

Hale Dwoskin: Yeah. As you see that, you are the awareness, it puts everything in perspective. And you can actually live more and more as awareness even when you're having a conversation, even when you're in your job, or taking care of your family, or commuting, those of you who still commute, or whatever else you're doing. And the more you become aware of it, the more awareness is aware of itself, and that changes the whole dynamic in a very profound way.

Shirley Owens: I agree, I think it's so important to have awareness. I think that as you're doing that little meditation, it's present for me that a lot of people say, they do things. And then they say, oh, this isn't me. I'm not usually like this, or I don't do this, or I don't understand why I'm acting this way because it's not me. I hear that a lot, and I think that just came to my mind when you were saying that that is something that you could use for that situation. Because if they really believe that it's not them, then it should be really easy to believe that they're just being aware of how they're being in that moment.

Hale Dwoskin: Well, again, it's more than just, it's beyond belief. I was in a recent interview and someone asked: "What beliefs do you live by?" And I said: "I don't live by belief." When you hear something that you find really helpful, what we tend to do is, especially if we trust the source, we tend to just believe it, and prove it out for ourselves. Would not take that extra step to make it our living experience. So what you can do with things that seem that you resonate with. You'll meet teachers, someone may read your book, for instance, and really resonate with it. They may just start weaving what you say, but they haven't really made it real for themselves. They haven't experimented with themselves and see how it applies in their lives. So that's, of course, what you want. What I recommend to people is that they don't believe anything I say, they just stay open to it, and then they check it out in their own direct experience. Does this match what I'm experiencing. And people find that when they let go of the struggle, when they let go of the identification with suffering, everything works better. And it's natural. That's the beautiful part of this beingness or awareness is natural. All the other things that we're usually doing to distract ourselves from life, or to lose ourselves in our drama or in our world are actually just distractions from that. And the more you pay attention to what's actually at your core, the more the light, and the love, and the peace, and the joy, and the happiness that you are shines for.

Shirley Owens: That's beautiful. I really love that. As you're speaking, things come up for me. What just came up for me with that was my son who's 24, when he was 10, we were outside, he was running in the street playing basketball and he slipped, fell and he cut his knee open. He was bleeding and he just walked over to me. And I, as a mother, remembering what my mom did and acting upon what I've always seen done was just like panicking. You're bleeding, you're hurting, whatever was in that moment. And I remember him saying to me: "Mom, pain is just another feeling." I don't think that he even really understood it at that time, but he wasn't going to allow pain to stop him from playing basketball. And that carried all the way through high school and college basketball.

I also have a daughter who was a collegiate gymnast, and it was the same thing. For them, pain was just part of their life. And I'm watching my daughter right now cope with a lot of things that most people would not cope with easily, health issues, just a lot of different things. And to her, it's just another thing, it's just another thing to overcome. And she just happily overcomes it. So when you were telling me that, I remember like a lot of times, when I went through natural childbirth, or when I went through things in life where I was able to use that mentality of pain being just another feeling, it's just another thing, we're just told that it is supposed to be bad. We're told that suffering is supposed to be suffering, like the word comes with such a negative thing where I've been able to, most of the time, just tack it on as another experience or another learning adventure. So that's just something that came up for me when you were talking about that.

“Pain is a label. The suffering comes from the label, not from the sensation itself.” -Hale Dwoskin

Hale Dwoskin: That's great. That's great. Yeah. Again, what we talked about in this with The Sedona Method, and with work, the books, the audio programs and Rhonda's book is the reason that it's as powerful as it is because everyone knows this to be true on some level. They know that they're not just a body or a mind. They know that the experiences come and go, they're not permanent. And they only have as much effect on us as we allow them to. In fact, you brought up pain, one of the ways to work on pain is to recognize that pain is just the label. The suffering comes from the label, not from the sensation itself. Pain is actually just a strong sensation, it's the body letting us know that something needs to be corrected. And when you just notice it as a strong sensation, you stop comparing it to every other time you've experienced that similar sensation. And then the body, mind knows how to deal with it in a much more same open way, and it can disappear, it just dissolves. There still may be a strong sensation, but you don't experience it any longer as pain. It sounds like both your children and you have already started to recognize that, which is beautiful.

Shirley Owens: Yeah. I think sometimes, pain is what we need to go through to get to the next step level. Childbirth is one of those things where I think the pain, if I could allow myself to believe that this is good, this is positive, because every amount of pain I have gets me closer to having this child. So to be able to retrain your mind, and obviously, I don't always have that mentality. You hear no pain, no gain, and there's so much more of a meaning to that than just what people say. But what I wanted to ask you is, this past year has been just a crazy year. This pandemic, it's just something new for all of us. And I believe that there are so many people that have suffered or felt that they can't overcome this year what they've gone through. Tell me how letting go, that my listeners that are listening that are feeling this, how does The Sedona Method and letting go, how can that help them to apply, just starting today, what can they do--

Hale Dwoskin: That's a great question.

Shirley Owens: Kind of like get rid of everything that they've had so that they can start rebuilding?

Hale Dwoskin: That's perfect. That's a perfect question. You've probably heard the expression [inaudible], it's all over the web and the news every day, pandemic exhaustion, or some similar thing. It's actually simpler than that. Whenever we feel like we have to do something, we must do something. We should do something. Or if we can't do something, we're not supposed to do something. We shouldn't do it. It brings up a feeling within us of resistance. And when we resist the things that we like, the waste is what precess the Carl Jung, that's actually a quote from Carl Jung, What You Resist, Persists. So anything in your mental state that you resist, persists. What's been happening this past year, as many of us have been resisting that we can do the things we used to be able to do. Many of us have been resisting wearing masks, or getting vaccinated, or not going to the store, or not hanging out with our friends are all the things that have changed. And fortunately, I think we're getting to the end of the pandemic, but that feeling of resistance is something that we all experience all the time. Anytime we think we should or shouldn't, which we do to ourselves a lot, I actually call this shoulding on yourself.

Shirley Owens: That's what I call it too.

Hale Dwoskin: So that feeling of resistance is something that's really simple. You can actually let it go, and then you can choose what to do or not to do, without this pushback or reaction. So let's actually do a release on that, because I think that will help people right away.

Shirley Owens: That's perfect.

“The more you let go of resistance, the more you discover the underlying flow, ease, and acceptance, which is what's natural.” -Hale Dwoskin

Hale Dwoskin: And it's something they can continue to do. It will be helpful long after the pandemic is over. Because every day, most of us have things that we should or shouldn't do. So we resist that, and it becomes a tug of war. And it causes a lot of unnecessary suffering. And the other thing I found is that the more you let go of resistance, the more you discover this underlying flow, ease and acceptance, which is what's natural. So letting go of resistance is very powerful. I remember the first time I did this, I think it was the early 80's or maybe in the late 70's. I was taking a course that was focused, our Sedona Method Course, that was focused on letting go of resistance, and my income during that course quadrupled. I was doing exactly the same things. The only thing I did differently, didn't do anything differently in my business. The only thing I did is I subconsciously was letting go of that feeling of resistance. So it's a very powerful thing to focus on. Just so we're clear, what I'm talking about when I say resistance, resistance is a feeling of pushing back against whatever it is you feel you don't want. It's a feeling of moving forward with the brakes on. It's a feeling of a push pull. And the good news is, it's just a feeling. And when you are ready to go, you find that you feel more and more in charge, less and less a victim of whatever's happening. Instead of going against the flow, you let the river of life carry you. So let's do a process in releasing it.

Shirley Owens: Okay.

Hale Dwoskin: This one is different than the one we did before. I'm going to ask you these questions, and I recommend that people just answer them yes or no. Just avoid debate as best you can. The less you think about it, the more you experience it. So allow yourself to think of anything that you're resisting, something about what those last year has been about, the things that have changed, but anything in your life where you have the feeling of resisting it, not wanting it, saying no to it. That's a big part of resistance, the saying NO to whatever it is. And then could you just welcome it, allow it, be present with it. And then as best you can just for now, could you let it go? Just could you. Would you? When? So you may find that you echo with one COULD YOU, you may find that you echo with one WOULD YOU, and you may find you go with one WHEN, or you may save it all up for the WHEN. But hey, let's do that a couple more times. Again, focus on any remaining feeling of resistance you have towards anything. And could you just allow it, welcome it, be present with. And then as best you can just for now, could you let it go? Just could you. Would you? When? And let's do that one more time. Focus on that same thing or anything else that you feel resistance towards, and could you just be present, or welcome or allow that feeling as best you can? And then as best you can, just for now, could you let it go? Just could you? Would you? When? Good. So you can use those questions on any uncomfortable or unwanted feeling, but they're very helpful to use around resistance. And don't let their simplicity for you. I've had people use those three questions to echo fears, and phobias, and long standing feelings of guilt, and anxiety, and anger, frustration, you name it, even deep grief. And those are just some of the beginning stages of The Sedona Method.

Shirley Owens: So these are things that you will find in your book?

Hale Dwoskin: Yes, that's in my book. Well, two books. And also in the free videos that we have on YouTube on The Sedona Method channel, we give a lot of free material on our site as well. But definitely in our book, in our audio programs and in our seminars.

“Resistance is a feeling of moving forward with the brakes on. When you let go, you feel more and more in charge and less and less a victim of whatever's happening.” -Hale Dwoskin

Shirley Owens: So I feel like, normally, at the end of my show, I asked if you can give my listeners something to apply today, and we've done that. I mean, more than that. That's been amazing. So tell me a little bit about the three books that I see in the background, The Sedona Method, Happiness Is Free and The Greatest Secret. Where can we find those? What is your website?

Hale Dwoskin: Sure. Our website is, but we also created a special page for your listeners, and it's

Shirley Owens: Awesome.

Hale Dwoskin: And that has information about our programs, but it also has links to The Sedona Method YouTube page, The Sedona Method Facebook page. The YouTube page has over 200 videos that teach people lots of techniques they can use to help themselves now. Our Facebook page, there are new quotes from myself and Lester every day, and also videos. And then the books, The Sedona Method book has been around for a long time, it's a New York Times Bestseller. And Jack Canfield wrote the foreword to it because he's a big fan.

Shirley Owens: That's awesome.

“When you recognize the true source of who you are, that brings a whole other level of freedom from suffering and unshakable happiness.” -Hale Dwoskin

Hale Dwoskin: And that teaches a good part of our work is right in the book. You can get that wherever books are sold. And then the book I just re released is called Happiness Is Free: And It's Easier Than You Think! I re-released that book, and that has a bunch of material from Lester Levenson and myself. It's both Lester and me. And Rhonda Byrne wrote the foreword to that book, because she quoted happiness is free, I think about 65 times in The Greatest Secret, her latest book. I also highly recommend Rhonda Byrne's latest book, The Greatest Secret. If you like The Secret, you will love this book as well, because it's really the next step. Holding in mind goodness, and manifesting in your life helps move you from being the victim of life to more of the master of life. But there's something beyond that. When you recognize the true source of life, the true source of who are, what you are, that brings a whole other level of freedom from suffering, and unshakable happiness, and peace and joy. So I recommend her book, unequivocally. Unequivocally? I think I left in a sense. Reading this book is wonderful too. So all Rhonda's book and my books are all available where books are sold.

Shirley Owens: Well, I feel so honored that you would be here with me today. Spending this time with you has been amazing. I feel like I just got coached along with all of my listeners, so thank you so much. I'm really grateful for you and for this time that we had together, and I also highly recommend those books. Sounds like you surround yourself with amazing people, and they also with you, and thank you so much for being here.

Hale Dwoskin: Oh, it's totally my pleasure. I hope to talk to you again soon.

Shirley Owens: You will, for sure. Thank you Hale.

Hale Dwoskin: Thank you, and thank you everyone for listening.

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